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  1998 VNN     November 21, 1998   VNN2534   See Related VNN
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                Ritvikism - The 14th Sahajiya Sampradaya
                -----------------------------------------------------
                BY SWAMI B.G. NARASINGHA

                INDIA, Nov 21 (VNN)  A brief conversation with
                Swami B.G. Narasingha

                Devotee: Have you read Srila Prabhupada's "Final
                Order".

                Narasingha Maharaja: Yes.

                Devotee: Then how can you say that the ritviks are
                the 14th sahajiya sampradaya?

                Narasingha Maharaja: Actually the ritviks are not a
                sampradaya. By saying so I am simply using the word
                loosely. Ritvik conception is in the apa-sampradaya
                category or the anti-party section. Apa-sampradaya
                means to preach against the principles and practices
                of pure devotional service and sahajiya means to
                imitate the real process of pure devotional service.
                In this way the ritviks have become
                sahajiya-apa-sampradaya because their process
                eliminates the real thing and tries to establish an
                illusory standard under false pretenses. In the same
                way one could consider the ritviks as mayavadis.
                Mayavada means the philosophy of illusion.

                There is no actual mayavada philosophy mentioned in
                the scriptures nor is there any ritvik system
                mentioned in the scriptures. So to establish either
                of these two conclusions is illusory.

                It is a symptom of Kali-Yuga that many concocted
                methods of devotional service will emerge but these
                will not be accepted by the intelligent class of
                men.

                (Srila Prabhupada: "The next symptom of the age of
                Kali is that principles of religion, which are
                spotless white, like the white lotus flower, will be
                attacked by the uncultured sudra population of the
                age......They will declare themselves as adherents
                of no religious principles and many "isms" and cults
                will spring up in Kali Yuga only to kill the
                spotless bull of religion." (c) 1991 by
                Bhaktivedanta Book Trust)

                Instructions regarding the actual science of Krishna
                consciousness and the process of pure devotional
                service have been passed down from guru to disciple
                in the parampara from the most ancient times until
                the present day. When we are in connection of the
                parampara system we do not feel the necessity for
                concocted methods of devotional service because all
                our anticipations are met by Krishna, Guru and
                Vaishnava.

                Devotee: That's true but there are no pure devotees
                present and therefore seeing the situation Srila
                Prabhupada has introduced a new system of parampara.

                Narasingha Maharaja: What you say is all concoction.
                Have you seen all the devotees of Krishna and
                Mahaprabhu present on this planet? No. But you
                condemn everyone to your own level of consciousness.
                Like Duryodhana - he could not see any qualified
                person anywhere. Whereas Yudhisthira saw that
                everyone was more qualified than himself. Persons
                with the mentality of Duryodhana can never
                understand who is a pure Vaishnava - while persons
                like Yudhisthira always find the company of pure
                devotees.

                The fact is that there are pure Vaishnavas on this
                planet (always have been - always will be) but you
                have not taken the time to search them out. Secondly
                what you have said about Srila Prabhupada not seeing
                any qualified person is also not true. He did not
                see a disciple fit to become the head of his ISKCON
                society and therefore he requested everyone to work
                in cooperation with each other (with a GBC at the
                head). He said, "Together I have some hope that you
                will do something." But he did not say that his
                disciples were unfit to carry on the parampara.

                One who introduces new systems, not authorized by
                the sastra and previous acharyas only creates a
                disturbance in society.

                sruti-smrti-puranadi,pancaratra-vidhim vina
                aikantiki harer bhaktir, utpatayaiva kalpate

                "Devotional service to the Lord that ignores the
                authorized Vedic literature like the Upanisads,
                Puranas, Narada-Pancaratra, etc., is simply an
                unnecessary disturbance in society."

                Srila Prabhupada never created or concocted new
                systems. He simply said, "Do as I am doing".

                Devotee: Actually Srila Prabhupada was the first
                sannyasi to perform the marriage function ceremony
                for his disciples so that is at least one example of
                his starting a new system.

                Narasingha Maharaja: That is a foolish argument.
                Performing marriage or not performing marriage
                ceremonies has nothing to do with the parampara or
                the process of pure devotional service. That simply
                comes within 'ways and means' to spread Krishna
                consciousness - it is not a valid example of what we
                are talking about.

                Devotee: Nonetheless, I think it is safe to say that
                since none of Srila Prabhupada's disciples are pure
                devotees that no one should initiate.

                Narasingha Maharaja: This is another one of your
                concocted statements. Show me even one place where
                Srila Prabhupada has said that his disciples or none
                of his disciples are pure devotees. You cannot.

                On the contrary Srila Prabhupada many times stated
                the qualifications to become a pure devotee and
                insisted that this was the only business of his
                disciples. He did not say, "None of my disciples are
                pure devotee." He actually stated many times just
                the opposite. First we should know what pure
                devotional service is.

                anyabhilasita sunyam, jnana-karmady-anavrtam
                anukulyena krsnanu, silanam bhaktir uttama

                "First class devotional service must be devoid of
                all material desires, knowledge obtained by monistic
                philosophy, and frutive action. The devotee must
                constantly serve Krishna favorably, as Krishna
                desires." (Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.1.11)

                Devotee: Yes. But...

                Narasingha Maharaja: But what? Do you believe in
                Srila Prabhupada and what he says or do you think he
                spoke nonsense? What is your position?

                Srila Prabhupada has stated on many occasions that
                his disciples were pure devotees to the extent that
                they follow his instruction. The key is there - in
                your hand - simply follow his instruction. In 1975
                Srila Prabhupada commented that he wanted disciples
                who would follow his instructions and become pure
                devotees. He said that he would have been satisfied
                if even one of his disciples had become a pure
                devotee but that he was fortunate because Krishna
                had sent many pure devotees to become his disciples.

                (Srila Prabhupada: "I want one student who follows
                my instruction. I don't want millions. Ekas candras
                tamo hanti na ca tara-sahasrasa. If there is one
                moon in the sky, that is sufficient for
                illumination. There is no need of millions of stars.
                So my position is that I want to see that at least
                one disciple has become pure devotee.

                Of course, I have got many sincere and pure
                devotees. That is my good luck. But I would have
                been satisfied if I could find out one only." (c)
                1991 by Bhaktivedanta Book Trust)

                Devotee: But the final order of Srila Prabhupada is
                there.

                Narasingha Maharaja: Yes, the final order is there,
                the first order is there and the second order is
                there. All the orders are there and all these orders
                are the same, "Become pure devotee."

                If not even a single disciple (as you are proposing)
                becomes pure devotee then the mission of the
                spiritual master is a failure. If no disciple has
                become a pure devotee then people will begin to
                rumor that the spiritual masters teachings have no
                potency or that he has no mercy to bless his
                disciples etc. So when you say that no disciple of
                Srila Prabhupada is qualified to become Guru then in
                effect you are saying that Srila Prabhupada and his
                mission have failed. It is intolerable to hear such
                nonsense - I can not agree.

                Devotee: They can become siksa-guru but not
                diksa-guru.

                Narasingha Maharaja: Where do you find such
                statements in the authorized sastra. You are simply
                speaking but without any sastric context. And what
                you say is only confused logic. The siksa guru is
                categorically in a higher position than the
                diksa-guru in that he is the manifestation of Sri
                Govindadeva the Lord of abhideya-tattva. The
                diksa-guru is the manifestation of Madan Mohanji the
                Lord of sambandha-tattva.

                In Caitanya Caritamrta the position of diksa and
                siksa-gurus are mentioned. Categorically it is such
                but to make discrimination between different gurus
                is an offense. Both are equal manifestations of
                Krishna. If one is a pure devotee according to the
                measure of the sastra then he is fit to become
                either siksa or diksa-guru or both.

                Devotee: But so many, what you are calling pure
                devotees, have fallen down - a pure devotee can not
                fall down.

                Narasingha Maharaja: Oh. This is very interesting
                point that you are making. On one hand you say that
                a pure devotee can not fall down but on the other
                hand, yourself and other ritvik proponents, are of
                the opinion that all living entities in the mundane
                world have fallen from eternal lila with Krishna in
                Goloka or Vaikuntha - is it not?

                Devotee: Yes. But...

                Narasingha Maharaja: So in the spiritual world were
                these fallen souls pure devotees or not? If they are
                not pure devotees then how can they be with Krishna
                in eternal lila. Therefore by your own admission a
                pure devotee can fall down - is it not?

                Devotee: Well....

                Narasingha Maharaja: Why many of Srila Prabhupada's
                disciples have fallen down you do not know. Despite
                spending hours together discussing and gloating over
                their fall down you still do not know why they have
                fallen. You do not know the secrets of devotional
                service. How can a faithful disciple fall from
                Krishna consciousness - especially after having
                rendered so much valuable and intimate service to
                the spiritual master? You should stop to consider.
                You should consult the senior Vaishnavas and the
                scripture and you will come to know that such
                disciples can fall down only due to nama-aparadha
                and particularly Vaishnava-aparadha.

                (Note from the Secretary: Readers interested in the
                content of this conversation are invited to send
                questions to Narasingha Maharaja at gosai@gosai.com
                - his answer will be posted on VNN. Names of all
                questioners will be withheld. Opposing views
                regarding this conversation need only be posted on
                VNN, not sent to Maharaja's email address. Haribol!)

                See Related VNN Stories

                This story URL:
                http://vnn.org/world/WD9811/WD21-2534.html

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